EP 61 – Carolin Barr K. – Founder of susGain – Local Is the Starting Point

Read the best-effort transcript below (This technology is still not as good as they say it is…):

Michael Waitze 0:21
Hi, this is Michael Waitze. And welcome back to the Social Innovation Podcast. Today we are joined by Carolin Barr. There’s a missing ‘K’ there. We’ll get to that in a second, the founder of susGain. Carolin, thank you so much for coming on the show. Before we get into the main part of the conversation, let’s give our listeners a bit of your background for some context. And maybe just tell me what the K means.

Carolin Barr K. 0:42
Sir. Hi, Mike. Nice to meet you. So yes, my name is Carolin and I’m the founder of social enterprise called susGain. And I’m originally I think my accent my gives it away originally from Germany, but have been living in Asia and in Singapore for more than a decade. Let’s talk about my name first. So actually, my last name is Barr. And the Kumar sometimes scares people off. So I just go by Caroline Barr, K dot. The funny part so so the last name has been brought to me by my husband. So it’s basically not my maiden name. And when it’s a Sri Lankan name, and so what actually happens is when people see us together and this long name, then they think I’m the Barr and he’s the Kumar Aquila, singer. But the funny part is that actually the back Kumar Aquila, singer, Bose is his name, but it’s just the how people you know, like what interpreted when they see us.

Michael Waitze 1:47
Wait then, how does that work? Then? Is his name like, Where does the Barr come from? He’s Sri Lankan, you said right. So we’re just the bar come from or is it just is it just all one continuous name, and it just looks to people that the bar is separate from

Carolin Barr K. 2:01
I think, historically, but this backmarkers thing is like a has been like this for a long time. But I think historically, it came from the fact that there was missionaries coming to Sri Lanka in the 18 1900s or so. And then basically, people who visit it to Christianize, those Sri Lankan populations, then gave their name to, to the people of Sri Lanka. And if I’m not mistaken bar could be like an Irish name also. But it’s been many, many generations that this double name has existed. But it sometimes causes confusion.

Michael Waitze 2:38
It’s a great thing to have like at a cocktail party, my name is so boring, like nobody even cares.

Carolin Barr K. 2:45
Sometimes super sad, my husband or you have such a long name. It’s like, Oh, you haven’t seen my wife’s name? Because I’m unfortunate to have four first names?

Michael Waitze 2:54
No, what is that?

Carolin Barr K. 2:57
So that’s Caroline on our younger Tamina. And then back America saying, If I tell my whole name, then

Michael Waitze 3:06
the whole podcast in and of itself? What was your professional background before you came into the sustainability? And the social enterprise space? Yes, yes.

Carolin Barr K. 3:19
Actually, I’ve been in HR consulting, learning and development to be precise, okay. And I’ve been always passionate about about seeing, like how we drive behavior, change how habits are formed, and about cultural intercultural interactions. So in my last daytime job, I was doing just that. So basically, doing business development for a consulting firm, which was selling regional, adult learning, solutions and training programs. And, yeah, that’s what I did.

Michael Waitze 3:53
So can you talk to me a little bit, I mean, I guess I want to find out more about Susskind too. But I just want to understand from your perspective, right, if you’re talking about so you’re a German living in Asia whose husband is Sri Lankan, you must get a special sense for like just how important culture is when it comes to making any kind of change in your life. And particularly since that was your professional background, we can kind of segue that into how do you get people to change so that their behavior is better for the environment? I mean, I guess that’s part of what sauce gain is trying to do. But if you even just a higher level, you must see cultural differences in this necessity to make people change their behavior. No.

Carolin Barr K. 4:33
Definitely, I think for me, in my in my mind, at least, like when I look at, like how to drive behavior change, there’s like different levers and different things that you know, like need to be in place and need to be happening and I think definitely one of these is related to cultural norms, and also to basically social influence right? In basically we are very much influenced by What we see other people are doing, and basically trying to be to follow the crowd, right? And this is where culture I think comes in quite a bit. And what’s, what’s the cultural norm. So to think of an example, for sustainability in the Chinese culture, it’s quite a norm that people would want to buy new things leading up to Chinese New Year and new clothes, right? And then it’s like very, very hard for a person to say, No, Chinese New Year’s no occasion, I get something pre loved, right? Just because it kind of is a little bit of a conflict, cultural wise.

Michael Waitze 5:34
Right, but how about in the West? In other words, you’re a German woman living in Asia, right. And when you’re trying to help people change their behavior for sustainability purposes, do you see differences in the way that would happen in Europe, as opposed to the way that would happen in Singapore or in Asia.

Carolin Barr K. 5:50
So to be quite honest, I have I have been away from Germany too long, so that I can really draw a direct comparison. But what what I can see is basically, through the time living in Singapore now, and we had a spin to live in the US for two years, and the Netherlands for a year. And then coming back to Singapore, and actually seeing the, I wouldn’t say not so much on the behavior change aspect. But in terms of the lifestyle aspect, I could see that there’s like very big differences in the, in the lifestyle in these different countries and cultures. And that actually was also initially a trigger point for me to start on the sustainability journey. Because it this awareness of, you know, like how life is so different in different places around the world, in terms of sustainability, it was quite eye opening. So think of, you know, like, the consumption and basically, a very consumption driven, you know, like, I would say, society in the United States, and you are looking at Netherlands where it was a very big contrast whereby shops were closed on the weekends and where people spent a lot of time outdoors, rain or shine, right. And then also coming back to Singapore, where I felt after being away for three years, in terms of technological advancement, there was new MRT lines, new shopping malls, new buildings, we were like progressing so much. At the same time. In terms of sustainability, I didn’t see that change happening. It was almost like a reverse whereby there was places that I used to go last time, like hawker centers, which used to give food in Reusables. And suddenly, they replaced it with single use items. And I was just going like, what what’s happening? Why are we doing that? Now? We already knew how to do it better, right? Why did why did that change?

Michael Waitze 7:43
Because that’s interesting, right? I mean, I, I would go to the hawker stalls as well, before I came back to Singapore a couple of weeks ago. And I would see the same thing. But why do you think that change must be easier for them? Is it more expensive for them to have multiple use stuff? This stuff that’s more sustainable? And is it cheaper for them to use single use things?

Carolin Barr K. 8:01
I think yes, definitely. I mean, labor costs have been going up quite a bit. Also, what we can see right right now is like actually, really a labor shortage. And that has been even more accelerated through COVID. And a lot of the workers, for example, from Malaysia, not necessarily coming back to Singapore. But it’s more of a recent thing. But I think also another point is potentially convenience, and maybe just the availability and accessibility of single use item at such a low cost. So that it’s just like, you know, like, I think people have, maybe don’t think about it too much. It’s just like, readily available, it doesn’t cost much more. Let’s just do it.

Michael Waitze 8:46
It feels to me just based on my other conversations with people in the social enterprise and social innovation space, there’s a lot of innovation taking place in the logistics and in the waste management space. Right, so that people are trying to take the waste, whether it’s from hawker stalls, or even just from big corporations that are throwing things away, splitting them out into into different buckets, and then taking that and organizing their waste collection and then waste delivery around how to make money off of that waste. It’s strange, then that people would go back to single use. Does that make sense?

Carolin Barr K. 9:21
Yes, yes, I think it does. And, and I think sometimes what in my point of view, what we tend to forget is that whatever material you use, there is an impact. So there is definitely also an impact if you want to wash your reusable, but there’s also an impact for the different items that you’re using. And one actually very alarming thing that I can see. What’s happening here locally is that there’s a big consumer drive towards biodegradable and compostable packaging and against plastic packaging, because consumer awareness currently is that oh Plastic is very bad. Now the thing is, when you look at the Singapore waste management system in our local context, we actually incinerating our waste. So in the end, we are not reaping the benefits of biodegradable or compostable packaging, which for a merchant cost them about three times more. So it’s really more expensive for them to have it. And it’s in that in our local context, not more sustainable. So the point that I’m always making is sustainability is not about trying to replace one material with another. That wouldn’t solve our problem. But it’s like rethinking the way we do things in the first place. Right? Yeah. But so

Michael Waitze 10:37
how do you fix that? Right? Because you’re right. In other words, if you take reusable materials, but you just incinerating it, so it doesn’t really change the overall behavior, right? And it’s more expensive, so that then there’s this reversion back to plastic because it’s single use, but it’s also easier and cheaper for everyone to use. There’s a whole value chain where this is taking place, right? How do you change that behavior at its core, so that going forward, not just the way consumers act, but the way the waste management acts as well change that so that when they take this stuff that is reusable, it doesn’t just get incinerated, but it gets reused in a way that is more sustainable. Do you know what I mean? Like how do you change? And to get back to your, the beginning parts of your career, we talked about behavior behavior? Where do you start? And how do you change that behavior?

Carolin Barr K. 11:25
I personally think it’s really about going back to forming new habits that this is very important. And how can we actually, yeah, we learn the way we do things, right. And, for example, when I want to do an emulator myself, I want to now start using Reusables. It actually doesn’t happen when I’m at a hawker stall, and I’m queuing to get my food. But it actually starts when I’m leaving the house, right? So I need to bring my reusable already with me in my bag, or I need to bring my water bottle that I want to refill already. Right. And so this is I think, where a lot of this habit change needs to occur. And I think sometimes we are, the good thing is that we have good and bad thing is that people are like doing a lot of things on autopilot, right? So we are habit people. And I think I can testify this for myself, the moment I started bringing reusable or bringing my water bottle when I leave the house, it’s so automated that I don’t even have to think about it the same like how people will never ever forget to bring their phone when they leave the house or bring their keys when they leave the house. Right. So it’s the same thing. And I think we can reap that benefit of you know, like, if you keep practicing habits over a certain period of time, they just feel very natural and normal to you. Just think about your gym, for example, right? You are going to the gym, and for the first 90 days, you have to probably always train yourself and you have to always motivate yourself to go. But if you have that habit already, if you suddenly stop going to the gym, you will be like, Oh, something is missing, right? But if you then stop for another 90 days, then you will basically be like, Okay, back to square one.

Michael Waitze 13:04
Yeah, I mean, I like I liken this to brushing your teeth, everybody does it two or three times a day. And if you stopped doing it for a week, you just feel horrible, right? But you it’s not a natural thing to do, you have to be trained to do it. And you wouldn’t go to bed without doing the same thing. And in a way more importantly, you make a really good point about this habit forming, right. So where I shop, they stopped giving away bags, if it must have been two or three years ago. And the first few times you’d go there, they charge you a few extra baht, right. So 10 cents, maybe to buy a reusable bag. And every time you’d go you’d forget. But now I have two bags in the bag that I carry every single day. You’re right. It’s just like my phone. And I don’t think that makes me a better person or a worse person. But I just feel like when I get to the shop, I just want to have something to put my groceries into if that makes sense. Right? Correct. I mean, that’s what you’re talking about. Right?

Carolin Barr K. 13:51
Yeah, exactly. And I think when you spin this a bit further as well, I think sustainability also needs to meet a win win for all of the parties involved. And I think again, when you’re looking at back at the merchants, we just talked about how maybe biodegradable or compostable single use were cost them three times more than plastic single use were right. At the same time, if they can save this course and they can maybe instead of buying this expensive packaging, giving you an extra reward for bringing your reusable and many partners students, they give you a free topic or they give you 10% off, then it’s a win win win, right? Because you’ll feel that you get more for being incentivized for doing this extra effort and for the merchant. It also helps them to lower their cost. So I

Michael Waitze 14:39
saw this actually, I want to talk a little bit more about this because I think this fits in directly to what Susskind is doing and I want to talk about Susskind at scale. But I saw this in the building where I work or where I do most of my stuff in in Thailand, right a traditional Park. I saw some of the guys and ladies that work there go downstairs it’s not a hawker stand but you know they make local food and they would bring their Um, I don’t know what else to call it except like an old bento box like a Japanese style bento box. And they put the food in there. So that the people behind the counter have to clean anything. They’re not using any of the stuff from downstairs, they have their own forks and spoons and chopsticks and whatever. And they just bring it upstairs and eat, they clean it themselves. This has to be better. But you’re right. If there was an incentive for right, because that’s a little bit bulky, right, the bag that I have I just fold up, it fits into my bag, I don’t even know what’s there. And on days that I don’t go shopping. It doesn’t really matter because it weighs nothing. But what does sustain maybe you can talk about what sauce gain is, and then how those how you build those incentives for people. So it is win win, because I do think you’re right, it has to be win win. It can’t be win for me and lose for you. Right?

Carolin Barr K. 15:43
Absolutely. Yeah. Okay, so the process is really about making sustainable lifestyle choices more available, more accessible, more fun, and more rewarding. And maybe the reason how we came up with this is that we identify that actually, the awareness of climate change for pollution in our oceans, social inequalities, and all this is like really high, right? So we all know that problem, we need to do something about it. And also, when you look at public perception studies, and you ask people, do you want to live a more sustainable lifestyle? The majority of the population nowadays will say, Yes, I want to do this, right. But at the same time, it’s almost like a moral question. And when you look at the actual behaviors of people, you can see that actually, a lot of people have that desire to do so. But they actually don’t know how to follow through. We relate to that, too. So we call this the intention, action gap, right? We want to we want to do the right things. But we don’t know how to get started.

Michael Waitze 16:47
Can I Can I just jump in for a second? And I want to make sure that I have this right. You know, I went for a run this morning, right. And I was listening to some Marvin Gaye and there’s this 1971 1971 Right. So what is that 51 years ago? Let’s just call it a half a century for rounding, right? And there’s this song he sings and in the song, he says, like fish filled with mercury. Do you know what I mean? Like we’ve known about this for ever? Yes. But I mean for ever. And he was lamenting it. It’s not the only thing about this song, but he was lamenting, and I was just thinking like 50 years is a long time. You know what I mean? So like, what are we like, what can we do to accelerate these incentives? And can you talk about this intention gap in a little bit more detail, right? Because you’re right. Like, I want to brush my teeth 15 times a day, I intend to do it, just like you said, going to the gym, I intend to go to the gym twice a day. But most people don’t. Right?

Carolin Barr K. 17:38
Yeah, exactly. One aspect of this is definitely, that we don’t know what we don’t know. And I think there’s a lot of ways we can create an impact, but we are just unaware of it. And I can explain you a little bit more of how it’s trying to, to help there. Maybe another area is also linked to, to convenience, right. And we spoke about, like how to in today’s world, you know, like everything is available at our fingertips. And it’s harder to relearn, because we have to maybe sometimes go out of the comfort zone first in order to find a new comfort zone. And then I think the biggest thing, in my point of view is related to the complexity of sustainability. So, I mean, what does sustainability mean to you, Michael, right. And I can probably go in on the street and ask five different people and one person will tell me, for me, sustainability means you know, like, taking care of my elderly, parents, for another person sustainability might mean to eat a more plant based meal. For somebody else, it means I want to live a zero waste lifestyle, right? And there many, maybe many more definitions of what people think. And the point is, because of that complexity, it’s maybe not so clear, what is it even that we can do? And even more so how does my individual action that I take have an impact in the horse, you know, like scheme of things because it feels just like, whatever I’m doing is just so meaningless, right?

Michael Waitze 19:12
I mean, it feels like it it doesn’t right now, it’s again, it just gets back to this thing of like, ads, you know, it’s 11 o’clock at night. I’m tired. I won’t brush my teeth. It’s not going to change the health of my teeth. I’ll just do it tomorrow morning when I wake up. But again, you know, when I see somebody smoke a cigarette, and just like flick it onto the street, it drives me crazy, right? Because, and I talked about this a lot, but the Japanese have this have the saying and I hope I get it right like shooting up some water by Yamani Nadu. And it just means like, if you pile up enough dust, it turns into a mountain. Right? So how do you convince people that like every little piece of dust that they’re making in their non sustainable living is going to turn it into a mountain like is it is there is their house gonna have to get flooded like on the beach for them to realize like, Okay, I could move a mile in but I’m just gonna keep moving miles in I don’t know what it’s gonna take, right? Actually, I

Carolin Barr K. 20:02
think there’s two ways to approach it. And there’s the carrot and stick approach. And I think when you look at sustainability of the times, we are talking about the scary scenarios, the things that are gonna happen, the story, Armageddon style pictures in our mind. And I think in terms of change management, these pictures are amazing to make us alert, okay, that’s something that we need to do. But the problem with this is that we have only so much capacity to absorb this type of information. Exactly, just look at COVID numbers, right. So we all understand this. But then the second part is, is the carrot approach. And I think this is where we are focusing too much, in my point of view, too much effort on is how can we actually make people feel excited about sustainability, have a lot of good emotion and good feelgood factors, so that we really feel sustainability is not something that another gym that I have to go to, but this is the lifestyle that makes me more fulfilled on a personal level, on a professional level, I feel like I, it makes me proud, it makes me you know, like, satisfied in whatever I’m doing, right. And I think if we are going that rule, we will definitely be able to create more long lasting change, because that’s how change management works, I’d be ultimately looking at our own benefit. And if we can find a way to make sustainability make us feel good, our doing good, makes us feel good, and we get rewarded, then we would just feel more at ease to pursue that journey,

Michael Waitze 21:34
right? But how do I get rewarded.

Carolin Barr K. 21:37
So let’s talk about this task a little bit. I walk you through the maybe to the mentally through the journey of what would happen when you download the app. And if you’re joining us on Singapore, you can do this right away, just have to head to the app and Play Store. So it’s a free app, and that you download and the first thing that you do is you choose a local charity that becomes a beneficiary. Currently, we are partnering with 12, local charities all supporting different sustainability related missions. And then afterwards, you come to a map. So what we have done all across Singapore, we mapped out our local eco infrastructure. So you will find places such as recycling bins, public parks, food bank, donation points, water refill stations, sustainability related events and activities, volunteering opportunities, and so on, and so on. So for the small country of Singapore, we have met over 2000 of these points. And so regardless of where you stay, you will see that a lot of options in your neighborhood. So the first thing is really discovering that when you have a desire, let’s say you want to I don’t know, do something with your old batteries, or you want to, you know, like, get involved in a social cause. There are these options, right, and it’s actually quite accessible to you. And the next part is that you earn points for practicing equal habits.

Michael Waitze 23:00
So in second ways again, so you earn points for for what did you say, for doing for adding eco habits, right? Yeah. What does that what does that mean? And can I just jump in for a second? Sure. I think I once heard somebody say that, like, at the end of the day, like all news is local. Right? Like people really only care about the stuff that’s happening around them. And do you think that that translates into this sustainability, too, in the sense that like, all sustainability is really local, like, in a way, like I can’t, I can’t help what happens in California, because it’s 12,000 miles away, or whatever, it is halfway around the world. But I can definitely make sure that my neighborhood is more sustainable, and that my maybe extended neighborhood is sustainable. Is that fair as well, though? Um, you know, that it’s really a local thing.

Carolin Barr K. 23:45
Local is the starting point, right. And I think it’s about like fixing your own yard first, before you go and care about other times. Right. So a good starting point. And I think what’s very important is that you look at sustainability from a local standpoint, just now earlier, we spoke, for example, about our waste management system. And sometimes they ask sustainability solutions out there that just might not fit our local sustainability context. And then that can be actually a mismatch there. Oh, for example, in terms of like, the way we treat our waste, right, we talked about for example, that in Singapore, we incinerating our waste so there is no point you know, like trying to, to bring more compostable or biodegradable product packaging into our market simply because our waste management system doesn’t isn’t able to reap the benefit of these materials. But when I go just across the border to Malaysia or Indonesia, it’s a completely different story. Right? Okay.

Michael Waitze 24:46
Can we change the way and it’s not just in Singapore, it I mean, I live in Thailand and frankly, I don’t have the details on what they’re doing there. Although I am encouraged in my condominium there are four separate garbage cans for me to throw things away and I try the best I pass. began to do it. But is there a way like we said to change the in the value chain? How waste actually gets handled as well? So that we can use more biodegradable more compostable things.

Carolin Barr K. 25:14
I think in a in a long run, is my might potentially change. But I guess so for example, in Singapore right now, if you’re getting compostable packaging, sometimes, the first thing you would need to probably check if it’s like home compostable, because some, it’s also just industrially compostable. And then if you’re in the lucky position that you do have like a community guide and a compass at your convenience, then you can definitely go and try this out. But I think if you are trying to wait until you know, like, we have composed stations all across our country, that will not happen, you know. So let’s get

Michael Waitze 25:53
back. Let’s get back to these points. Right. So how can I earn points? And what’s the benefit to me? Because you want to connect both sides of this market, right? In other words, if we talked about Win Win before, if it’s just win for me, how does it work?

Carolin Barr K. 26:03
All right, so maybe let’s talk about the points first. So you earn points for practicing your equal habit period, you go to a park and you refill your water bottle will be at your recycling your E waste, or you are earning points for joining a volunteering organization. And would love to talk about this a little bit more as well. But there’s like amazing courses out there such as moonlight books, which are cleaning up our beaches, which are part of food rescue organizations. And they are all volunteer based initiatives. And so they are actually using our app to give a little token of appreciation to these volunteers who come out and clean our beaches on the Sunday morning or redistributing food to people in need, etc. And these points that you earn on the app can actually be converted to impact rewards. So currently, we are partnering for example, with a charity called Eden reforestation project. And you can convert the points that you have earned to plant mangrove trees in the UK, Ireland and Indonesia. Okay, so for your eco habits, basically, real trees are being planted. So this is one of the areas of what you can do with this askin app, basically practice eco habits and earn points. And then there’s another part, which is actually also listing and featuring different local sustainable brands. And while it’s true that we can say, you can basically buy yourself into being more sustainable, I still believe that our everyday consumption choices are very, very powerful way how we can mend it and drive the change. Now, the issue is that, how do we as individuals even know what is the most sustainable choice, right, so we all know how to buy the cheapest and maybe a good quality product. But we don’t know about sustainability, because there is no information readily available for us at purchasing level, what that means. And so what we have done is actually we have started set up our own sustainability framework, which is based on the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals. And we have come up with eight badges, such as reduce, reuse, recycle, locally made, organic, vegan, socially responsible, carbon conscious, etc. And these badges will be awarded to partner brands that we have on our ecosystem that are basically doing contributions in these areas. So for the brands to join us. And to receive that badge, they have to have verifiable proof that they are taking action.

Michael Waitze 28:35
Right. So this is important right now, we’re just taking a note to myself. When you buy a product at the supermarket, it lists like all the ingredients, the percentage of sugar, the percentage of fat like this is mandated by governments globally. Are we moving to a point now where companies manufacturing and even service companies are going to be incentivized, or, dare I say, regulated into advertising, or at least informing people about the sustainability of their products, in the same way that they’re accountable for the ingredients that they put into the food that we eat as well? Besides the badge, because the badge is great, but this is you want us to be at scale on? Yeah. Right. You know what I mean? Like it’s that kind of happen, do you think?

Carolin Barr K. 29:21
I think we are moving towards that direction. But we are not quite there yet. And I guess that’s like still a lot of complexity involved in it right. In our case, for example, currently, we are doing this review the sustainability review at Brand level and not at product level. And that in itself already brings quite a lot of complexity. And also, I think when you look at against sustainability, it means so many things and a merchant which might be great in supporting local communities of maybe selling local produce might not be as good in terms of their packaging solutions and uses maybe a lot of single use items right Right. And so we constantly will see that dilemmas. But the point that we are trying to make is that while also on the merchant side, maybe sustainability is not yet perfect, and they have not figured out all of the solutions, let’s focus on what they are already doing, and giving you as a consumer the choice to filter by the values that are dear to your heart, so at least you can make more informed decisions. And you know, what are the options? For example, in terms of if you were to say, want to have organic food that you can easily find them? Right,

Michael Waitze 30:31
right. So I’m a big believer in the power of storytelling and repetition, to get people to change their behavior. And if nothing else, just to at least understand what’s happening around them in any particular vertical, right? How do we find more people to help us tell these stories, so that the larger community can understand not just the importance of it, but the people that are actually already going out and doing this? Does that make sense?

Carolin Barr K. 31:02
Huh, can you tell me more about like, well,

Michael Waitze 31:05
I want to know more, I want to be able to tell more of these stories, like where do I find more people that I can get to come on this show to keep talking like you are to say, here are the things that we’re doing so that we can celebrate some of these people, as opposed to celebrating Elon Musk every day. Which is annoying. Yes. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 31:22
I think that’s a that’s a very good question. And I’m not sure how knowing the answer about it, because I personally see that all the time that actually there’s a lot of everyday heroes that we have in our communities that are doing amazing things we just such as food rescuing or such as, you know, like beach cleanup, or other areas, such as merchants who are supporting people with disabilities, etc. And I think sometimes that these stories are not easily current, right? Yeah. And they’re not exactly easy tool. And I think Sasken smaller contribution to that is that we are trying to actually give more visibility to these local brands, and more visibility to the sustainability, like aspects that they have implemented into their business, so that it can ultimately help them generate more customers get more customer loyalty, and connect them better with the customer base who values these benefits, or that these these efforts that they’re taking in terms of sustainability, right. And this is where I guess the wind wind comes in, and to try to see, how can you better match the people who are looking for more sustainable consumption choices with the merchants who are already offering it, and then bringing these two together and giving additional incentives and in our case is cashback and a matching charity donation so that you have an incentive to basically try out more sustainable products and services.

Michael Waitze 32:45
Right. That’s a great, that’s a great way to end I think I really want to thank you for doing this. Do I have it right? Is it Carolyn Caroline?

Unknown Speaker 32:52
Was this perfectly fine? What do you say though? Even myself, I’m calling myself in German, I would find myself cabling and then English. I would call myself Caroline.

Michael Waitze 33:01
I’m gonna say Carolin Carolin Barr, the founder of susGain. Thank you so much for coming and doing this today. I really appreciate it.

Carolin Barr K. 33:07
Thanks for having me. Bye bye.